Interview with Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche after the passing of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Q: What does it mean when some lamas remain in tukdam?

R: Generally speaking, tukdam comes about when someone has rested evenly in luminous wakefulness during his life, usually called samadhi, and occurs to the same degree as his experience. When he then passes away, there is what we call 'the mingling of the mother and child luminosities,' which means that the ground luminosity and the luminosity of that person's practice mingle indivisibly.

At that moment, the experience of luminous wakefulness is very strong and one simply remains in its composure naturally, meaning that high lamas or someone with deep experience and realization will naturally dissolve into or expand into this state of samadhi. When the ground luminosity dawns by itself, they recognize it, and then remain in equanimity - that is what is called 'remaining in tukdam.'

No doubt an ordinary person also experiences the ground luminosity, but because of not having trained in it during their life, they don't recognize this ground luminosity, and failing to recognize, they are therefore unable to remain in tukdam. On the other hand, great masters naturally mingle the mother and child luminosities, - in the very moment the ground luminosity unfolds within their direct experience, they acknowledge this basic state and remain in samadhi this is called 'remaining in tukdam.'

It is due to the strength of the samadhi that the body heat doesn't disappear completely, that the skin color doesn't fade, and that the body is able to remain in an upright sitting posture. Due to such visible signs, we are able to conclude that the person is in tukdam.

Q: What do such signs as a 'clear sky and dust-free earth,' represent?

R: Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche was someone who kept a concealed profile, meaning that he didn't make a great display of himself. He concealed his qualities and hid what he was, often saying, "I'm nothing special, I'm not learned." Since he kept such a low profile, it could mean that, when he passed away, then naturally, due to the power and strength of his extraordinary samadhi, the sign of a clear sky and dust-free earth manifested. He probably concealed any other sign such as rainbows, rays of light, and so forth.

Q: What are the reasons for making prayers and ceremonies during the first 49 days?

R: The duration of 49 days is the average length of time an ordinary person spends in the bardo, the intermediate state between dying and taking rebirth. It is taught that for some people it lasts longer, for some less, but for the most part it takes 49 days before the next rebirth. When speaking of a sublime being, we reckon approximately the same number of days.

When a master's body has died, we consider that his mind is still present, and so when we disciples make offerings, create merit in various ways, and try to train in samadhi, then since his compassionate wisdom mind is seeing us, we receive blessings. By receiving blessings, we generate a tremendous accumulation of merit during these 49 days.

If it happens that after the 49 days he again accepts to reincarnate, then our object of supplication becomes somewhat removed. On the other hand, right now, while in an intermediate state, he sees us directly, and does so with immense compassion and kindness. This is the reason why any sadhana, meditation practice, or any other spiritual actions to create merit, bring tremendous blessings.

Q: What is the purpose of having five groups of lamas unfolding five simultaneous mandalas during the cremation ceremony?

R: The five mandalas symbolize the five buddha-families. These five families are in fact the forms of the five wisdoms. In the context of 'kayas and wisdoms,' until the cremation the wisdoms are present together with body, the kaya. During the cremation ceremony, a separation takes place after which the wisdom quality is all by itself.

Since wisdom, the quality of original wakefulness, is by itself, while with its five aspects it is the identity of the five male buddhas, therefore mandalas are unfolded for each of these five buddha families, and offerings are made by means of fire-puja, the 'giving-and-burning' ritual. This is a way to generate enormous merit. These five wisdoms - dharmadhatu wisdom, mirror-like wisdom, wisdom of equality, discriminating wisdom, and all-accomplishing wisdom - which are the very identities of the five buddha families, are being emphasized by making five separate fire-pujas.

Q: What is the purpose of the cremation ceremony as a fire-puja?

R: Rather than simply cremating someone's body, to perform the cremation as a fire-puja is an act of offering as well. While making offerings we don't regard the body as an ordinary corpse, but instead it is visualized in the form of a wisdom deity which is invited to dissolve into the body. When offerings are made, the creation of merit is much greater and more far-reaching.

Generally speaking, when placing food, drink, and so forth in front of a statue or a tanka we don't have the feeling that the buddhas actually accept the offerings. But by placing the various offerings into the fire, we have the impression that not only have we offered something, but also that the offering is received by the buddhas. For instance, unlike when we make a feast offering, where we first offer the articles and then we later eat them ourselves, in the case of a fire-puja, we offer the things in actuality, having given up attachment to them. That is why it is taught that fire-puja offerings are unlike other ways of making offering and bring greater benefit.

Considering the cremation ceremony as a fire-puja is even more extraordinary since we imagine that the fire's identity is flames of original wakefulness that represent the Body, Speech and Mind of the glorious root guru. Keeping this attitude ensures a vast accumulation of merit.

Q: Would you please say something about Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche?

R: Generally speaking, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche was someone with extraordinary experience and realization, a fact known throughout the world. This is not something I need to say. It is evident to everyone that he was unlike anyone else when it came to pointing out the nature of mind, and making sure that people both recognized it and had some actual experience. In this way he was extraordinary, and I feel it is all right if I don't talk too much about it. In a more general way, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche was born into the family of Chokgyur Lingpa, a unique family line. In addition, he is the father of the present tulku of Chokgyur Lingpa which is also something quite extraordinary.

I would also like to add that a lot of people believe that if someone is a terton then he must belong to the Nyingma school. It doesn't necessarily follow that every terton has to be a Nyingmapa. There are tertons among the Gelukpas, and Kagyus, as well as Sakya and Nyingma tertons. As for Chokgyur Dechen Lingpa, he is extremely influential within the Kagyu school.

handprints of Chokgyur Lingpa Among his root gurus he followed Khyentse Rinpoche and Kongtrul Rinpoche, and together - now famous as Khyen, Kong and Chok - they revealed the termas. One of the principal termas they brought forth was revealed at Tsandra Rinchen Drak. Among the termas revealed by Chokgyur Lingpa are the Sabdun Phurba, and the two main Tukdrub styles of guru sadhana. If the question is raised about who is primarily doing these practices, then the drubchen of Sabdun Phurba and the others are not being performed in the main seats of the Nyingma school - Mindrol Ling or Dorje Drak. These monasteries have their own set of practices and do not use the termas of Chokgyur Lingpa for their drubchen ceremonies. In Eastern Tibet are two other chief Nyingma monasteries, Shechen and Dzogchen, and there they also utilize specific individual traditions of practices, and so they, too, do not use the termas of Chokgyur Dechen Lingpa, such as the Sabdun Phurba, for their ceremonies.

So, exactly who is performing the drubchens of Sabdun Phurba and the two types of guru sadhana of Tukdrub? They were mainly done at Chokgyur Lingpa's own seats, and, since one of his chief disciples was Karmey Khenpo Rinchen Dargye, it was he who began and maintained the tradition of holding the Sabdun Phurba at the monasteries Karmey Gon and Tsurphu Gon. Later, as we all know, the 16th incarnation in the line of the Gyalwang Karmapa also had this grand ceremony performed at his seat in Rumtek. Therefore, since the two Tukdrub ceremonies are also mainly held at Kagyu monasteries, not at the Nyingma ones, we Kagyus also consider Chokgyur Lingpa to be a terton for the Kagyu school.

All four schools of Tibetan Buddhism regard Guru Rinpoche as the second Buddha, and all four schools practice his concealed terma treasures. But, it is mainly the Kagyu followers who practice the profound teachings of Chokgyur Lingpa. I therefore feel that he chiefly belongs to us Kagyus. [Rinpoche chuckles.]

Q: What was the relationship between the 16th Karmapa and Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche?

R: The 16th incarnation in the line of the Gyalwang Karmapa regarded Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's family line as very special and therefore received many of the empowerments for Chokgyur Lingpa's termas from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche. Moreover, they were very close since His Holiness trusted Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche as his personal advisor in both spiritual and secular affairs. As we know, many times the Karmapa showed how he held Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche in extremely high esteem.

Q: What is the purpose of erecting a stupa at the same site as that of the cremation?

R: The place where the kudung is cremated in the 'burning-and-purification' ceremony is often the same place where the stupa is built. The reason for this is that for some lamas, through the power of their blessings, we can see that many ringsel-relics appear at the cremation site. The appearance of these ringsel is not confined to the body of the lama, but also from the smoke, the ashes, and even any place around or near the funeral pyre; sometimes ringsel appear naturally. But whether there are visible ringsel or not, the ashes and the smoke pervade the environment. Therefore the site becomes the support for extraordinary blessings and is kept so that it can be regarded as such by people in future generations.

If the cremation site is simply abandoned, people will walk carelessly over it, since there is nothing to remind them. In the spiritual sense, there would be no lasting receptacle for the extraordinary blessings, no continued support for people's veneration and for receiving these blessings. Isn't this the reason for building a stupa? Another reason why a stupa is regarded as special and full of blessings is that it is said to be the primary 'activity of the awakened mind' of all buddhas. I therefore feel that in such a stupa, the blessings of the guru's mind will naturally enter and be present.

As the numerous stupas throughout the country of Nepal attest, in the past many great masters have come here over the millennia. Although in the last couple of centuries not very many masters have lived here, and so, the 'string of the Dharma' has become very thin, still, Buddhism in Nepal has remained without vanishing. I feel one of the reasons for the unbroken continuity of Buddhism is that, thanks to the three main stupas - those in Boudhanath, Swayambhu and Namo Buddha, people regard the teachings of the Buddha as something special: they have continued to circumambulate these stupas respectfully, and maintain the notion that the Three Jewels are special objects of veneration which you can supplicate.

Even though no living master may be present to teach the Dharma in actuality, generation after generation, people continue to see the stupa with their eyes, receive blessings, understand that there are the Three Jewels in which you can place your trust, and in this way, naturally, the Dharma continues. In the same way, when building a stupa for the remains of a great master, his power and blessings will remain. That is the reason to build a stupa.